The Godhead
Introduction A
I’m writing from Malaysia where I have made many Muslim friends in the last couple years from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and, of course, Malaysia. And as I am connected to most of these electronically, it seems likely to me that one or more of them might read this. So, for the rest of you, please endure a word of explanation to them:
Friends, the reason that I am a Seventh-day Adventist is not because I just accepted the religion of my family or nation. It is because I found incredible power in the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is because I found incredible prophecies in the prophetic books that proved that those books were still reliable today. It is because I searched for truth and God helped me find it.
And what kind of truth did I find? Truth about history. Truth about world religions. Truth about how to escape from sinful habits. Truth about how to be justified in the Day of Judgment. Truth about the life and work of Jesus.
What I never did find is prophets writing about a “Trinity.” So when I talk to you about religion, I never talk about my views about God. I don’t think it is reverent to argue about ideas that are high above us. I won’t argue about the nature of God.
But recently, some of my friends have begun arguing about the Godhead, about mysterious questions. And this article is written to help them. It may or may not be interesting to you.
Introduction B
You and I can work together if we have the same mission. We need not agree on minor points if our major aim harmonizes well. This is why James White (a non-trinitarian) could work together so finely with William Miller (a trinitarian) before the Great Disappointment. Their message was to lead people to prepare for Christ’s soon return. And little arguments about the great ancient pre-earth past just couldn’t hold a candle to questions about the very near future.
I can work with you for the same reason if you and I share a burden for the Three Angels’ Messages.
Those messages relate to the whole Bible. But they are not the whole Bible. They are the part of the wide Bible message that is particularly at issue today. They include messages about the Judgment, the work of Creation, the fall of Babylon, the Mark of the Beast, the commandments of God and about righteousness by faith. And they include instructions about to whom we should be sharing these messages: to every kindred, tribe and people. (This is why I am in Malaysia far from my mother and brother and in-laws and nephews and nieces).
Those messages were given to unite our efforts, and to unite our hearts, and to keep us away from arguments regarding periphery things.
“These messages were represented to me as an anchor to the people of God. Those who understand and receive them will be kept from being swept away by the many delusions of Satan.” EW 256.2
Our pioneers worked tirelessly to share these three messages.
Those who read broadly in their writings know that the pioneers of the Adventist message were not trying to convert the mainstream church members to a non-trinitarian position. What message did these courageous men present to the world? They wrote books on the Sabbath, on spiritualism, and on the truths of the sanctuary. They wrote about mortality and about God’s law.[i] These are all themes of the Three Angels’ Messages.
They did not write any books on the Godhead.
Consider this also: The three books designed by Ellen White to warn (GC) and prepare (DA, STC) the world for Christ’s coming can be read with pleasure and appreciation by trinitarians and by many non-trinitarians alike. They just were not written to change the public’s view regarding questions on the Godhead.
I did say that none of the pioneers wrote a book on this topic. Well, J. H. Waggoner almost did. In 1877 he wrote a book titled “The Holy Spirit.” He was a non-trinitarian. And in this book was his perfect opportunity to express his core beliefs on this topic. Instead, he said that Adventists had never dared to even enter the discussion of whether the Spirit was a person. And there were reasons, he said, for not entering into the argument. One reason was the ambiguity of the terms. But the other was this: it was not an issue settled by “direct revelation.”
There is one question, which has been much controverted in the theological world upon which we have never presumed to enter. It is that of the personality of the Spirit of God. Prevailing ideas of person are very diverse, often crude, and the word is differently understood; so that unity of opinion on this point cannot be expected until all shall be able to define precisely what they mean by the word, or until all shall agree upon one particular sense in which the word shall be used. But as this agreement does not exist, it seems that a discussion of the subject cannot be profitable, especially as it is not a question of direct revelation. We have a right to be positive in our faith and our statements only when the words of Scripture are so direct as to bring the subject within the range of positive proof. We are not only willing but anxious to leave [this topic] just where the word of God leaves it.
A person then who read between the lines might have been able to conclude that Waggoner was less than persuaded by the Trinitarian creeds. But one would have been equally sure that the author was not writing the book to contradict them.
In other words, the pioneers were private non-trinitarian persons who took the Three Messages to a trinitarian world. And they rarely, in lectures or books for the public, even alluded to the issue of the Godhead.
In one other of Waggoner’s books did he address his concerns with the Trinity. And there he almost sounded like he would be a trinitarian if the word was only defined differently. He did not want to be confused with those who denied Christ’s divinity.
[Some] take the denial of a trinity to be equivalent to a denial of the divinity of Christ. Were that the case, we should cling to the doctrine of a trinity as tenaciously as any can; but it is not the case. They who have read our remarks on the death of the Son of God know that we firmly believe in the divinity of Christ; but we cannot accept the idea of a trinity, as it is held by Trinitarians, without giving up our claim on the dignity of the sacrifice made for our redemption.[ii]
This comment comes from his book on the atonement. And it provides quite an insight as to why he opposed the creedal concept of the Trinity. The creeds said some strange things that, to our Biblical-minded pioneers, sounded like so much meaningless gibberish or worse. James White complained that 3 does not equal 1. Joseph Bates couldn’t see how Jesus could be at the same time be the Father and the Son. More significantly, several pioneers thought that the creeds made Christ’s sacrifice into a merely human sacrifice (since divinity can’t die).
And James was right. Three are not one person as some creeds alleged. Bates was right. The Son and the Father do not have interchangeable positions in Scripture. And the pioneers were right that a merely human sacrifice would never atone for our sin.
But on that last point Smith and Waggoner wrote too much. The blending of Christ’s two natures, his taking humanity so that he could “taste death” for all of us, are mysteries that we cannot penetrate. How Jesus could really die as He was, is not for us to know.
This is something they got right. And I, for the record, wish that our 28 fundamental beliefs were more ambiguous in regard to the Godhead. There are things we just don’t need to know. And consequently, we don’t know them.
I mean, we don’t know anything about the Spirit’s substance. We don’t know anything about the Spirit’s eternal pre-existence. And if we agree that “in the beginning the Word was with God, and the Word was God” we probably should admit that we don’t know anything about something before that beginning. We don’t know if the Son was a Son at that point. We don’t know that He was. And we don’t know that He wasn’t. And as I said a bit ago, there are some things we just don’t need to know.
On that very topic where Waggoner said “we” did not dare to go, Uriah Smith did go. A question sent to the Review drew it out of him. And the question shows that the readers were not settled on the question at hand as to whether the Spirit was a person. As Editor, Uriah returned answer through the Review. He addressed the question again for the General Conference. In other words, when Smith (twice, in 1890-1891) expressed views of the Spirit that are believed by many today, he did both times for an inside audience. (As an aside, these very years were a very low point in the spiritual life of Uriah Smith.)
If during his 30 years writing for the church you were to read about 4,000 pages from his pen, only four of those pages would allude to questions regarding the nature of the Godhead. Did he have non-trinitarian views? Yes. Did he promote them in print? For someone who wrote weekly as an editor, he did so only very rarely[iii]. If you, friend, also have non-trinitarian views, I wish you would imitate the good pioneers on this point.
Of course, the pioneers are not our models. And their beliefs are not a criterion for what we should believe. So let’s get to some other points.
New, Old, Original, Orthodox, and a love of Civil Debate
Our lack of Biblical literacy makes us sitting ducks for well-camouflaged error. When we see an apparently compelling study using much scripture in a persuasive way, we are intrigued and, at the same time, clueless. But I have written on this elsewhere.
In the arguments over the godhead, personality gets involved in a subtle way. Some persons are naturally orthodox. They want to defend the church’s position and react bearishly when it is attacked. Others are naturally inquisitive and independent. They don’t want to be controlled or boxed. They want to think for themselves. (I am naturally in the latter of these two groups). The trouble with these internal influences is that they make us easily manipulatable. Satan only need bring up an issue to transform us into brawlers (as Paul calls them in Titus 3:1-3).
Again, much could be written about this. But if you are looking for data on the godhead, that writing would weary you.
So let us study some Bible ideas:
Three Types of Sons:
We, in Romans 8, are sons of God by adoption. (And that adoption is evidenced by our conformity to God’s will, Romans 8:14). Our adoption makes us “joint-heirs” (Romans 8:17) “with Christ.” But unlike us, He was not adopted.
And in Job 38, the angels are called “the sons of God.” There they, holy created beings, are rejoicing as they see the earth being fashioned. They are sons of God by creation. That is what Adam was also, a son by creation (Luke 3:38).
But Jesus is the unique Son of God. Only He is begotten.
A complete offering has been made; for “God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,”—not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father’s person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. – ST May 30, 1895.
What this intriguing statement tells us is the same thing that Scripture tells us a hundred times. Jesus is the “only begotten Son.”
But when was He begotten? Some trinitarians would say it was about 4 BC when Mary, impregnated by the Spirit of God, gave birth. Some other creeds would say something quite incomprehensible, namely that he is “eternally begotten.” (See the Nicene Creed. This is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church).
The Scripture speaks directly to this question regarding the timing of the begetting. Surprised? Psalm 2 tells that there was certainly a day when the Father said to the Son, “this day have I begotten thee.”
Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews directly points out this declaration regarding Christ to be the event that separates Him from the angels.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Notice the future tense of the second statement in the verse. “I will be to him a Father…”
But though both verses mention a particular day when the Father spoke to the Son, neither tells us a great deal about when this conversation happened. Psalms 2 does, however, give us some hints. On the same day, apparently, the Father offered to give the heathen to Jesus for an inheritance.
Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thankfully the Bible does clearly tell us elsewhere what day this incredible dialogue between the Father and Son happened.
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
So what day did the Father say, “Today I have begotten you”? It was at the resurrection. And to understand that curious fact there are a few other Bible ideas we need to follow.
First, sonship in the Bible is frequently unrelated to origin. It is, in such contexts, rather related to character. In these verses, to be a “son” or part of the “seed” of a person (or of the devil) has nothing to do with your ancestry. It is related instead to your activities. Notice in the following dialogue (where references to sonship are in bold for your convenience) that the Jews were Abraham’s children in terms of origin, but not in terms of character. Jesus said they were children of the devil, not because the devil created them or adopted them, but because they did the works of the devil.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
The way Jesus talks in this chapter is a key to many other passages. The enmity (Genesis 3:15) between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent is not about beings that the devil originated, but about those that followed his pernicious suggestions. Those that do his “lusts” are his children.
This is, of course, the sense in which Abraham is the father of many nations. He isn’t the origin of them. But they are like him.
Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. . . . 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
What may be a fresh thought to you is that this idea of sonship pre-existed embryos. Genesis 3:15 was given before human pregnancy had happened.
That brings us very naturally back to our key text, “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”
In what sense was this fulfilled at the resurrection?
First, it was the resurrection that shows Christ’s divinity according to the Holy Spirit, just as his flesh showed his human relation to King David.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
This verse is not the only one that connects Christ’s sonship to God with his resurrection. Elsewhere he is called, “the first begotten from the dead.” Revelation 1:5.
Some thoughtful readers may have questions about this idea. How, for example, could Jesus be called the “Son of God” in Daniel 3:25 if He wasn’t “begotten” until six centuries later? Those familiar with Ellen White’s writings about the origin of evil know that Jesus was known as the Son of God even before the fall of Lucifer. So how can this harmonize with Jesus being “begotten” at the resurrection? Further, the Father gave his “only begotten Son” to die for us. How could Jesus be the “only begotten” 30 years before he was begotten?
The answer is related to God’s foreknowledge. Notice what Revelation says about Jesus.
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Jesus was the lamb “slain” for four thousand years before He was slain. That is because God speaks about things that are not yet existing as if they have already happened. Romans 4:17.
This brings us back to Psalm 2. And what time did the Father say to the Son, “This day have I begotten thee?” That was at the resurrection. He is called the “first begotten from the dead” not because he is the first one resurrected, but because His resurrection is preeminent. And He is known as the Son even before the creation of the world in harmony with how God speaks.
What is apparent is that the Divinity of Jesus was not familiar to the angels at the time Lucifer was spreading rebellion. Earlier, angels obediently worshipped Jesus before they understood the basis of the command to worship Him. Later, they came to understand.
The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father’s throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both. About the throne gathered the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng—“ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands” (Revelation 5:11.), the most exalted angels, as ministers and subjects, rejoicing in the light that fell upon them from the presence of the Deity. Before the assembled inhabitants of heaven the King declared that none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will. The Son of God had wrought the Father’s will in the creation of all the hosts of heaven; and to Him, as well as to God, their homage and allegiance were due. Christ was still to exercise divine power, in the creation of the earth and its inhabitants. But in all this He would not seek power or exaltation for Himself contrary to God’s plan, but would exalt the Father’s glory and execute His purposes of beneficence and love. Patriarchs and Prophets 36.2
The life that Jesus had before coming to earth was not the Father’s life. It was his own life. And that is why He could pay for our sins. He was “self-existent.”
No one of the angels could become a substitute and surety for the human race, for their life is God’s; they could not surrender it. On Christ alone the human family depended for their existence. He is the eternal, self-existent Son, on whom no yoke had come. When God asked, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Christ alone of the angelic host could reply, “Here am I; send Me.” He alone had covenanted before the foundation of the world to become a surety for man. He could say that which not the highest angel could say—“I have power over my own life. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” Ms 101, 1897.28
The idea of self-existence is contrary, to many minds, to the idea of a Father-Son relationship. It is completely foreign to the idea of being “begotten.” This is where Psalms 2 comes in and helps us. It shows us that Jesus could be self-existent and be begotten at the same time.
The idea of Christ’s self-existence is denied by many today. They say that His life came from the Father. But that is precisely what the statement above denies. And if we are frank, it is what a better-known statement also denies.
Still seeking to give a true direction to her faith, Jesus declared, “I am the resurrection, and the life.” In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. “He that hath the Son hath life.” 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer’s assurance of eternal life. – DA 530
When I have a son, you could argue that my son’s life is mine. Certainly, he is derived from me and my wife. But with the Son there is no such relation to the Father according to this statement. His life is “underived.”
But suppose you see it another way. I don’t condemn you. I don’t doubt your intelligence. (I try not to doubt your skill at avoiding over independence while searching for truth.) I think we could even work together if we agree on the main thrust of our message, the Three Angels’ Messages as found in Revelation 14.
But let me illustrate our differences (yours and mine if we don’t agree) by a famous Adventist disagreement some decades ago. It was about the “daily” found in Daniel 8, 11, and 12. Some Adventists thought this word to be a covert symbol of pagan Rome. Others thought it to be a subtle reference to Christ’s continuous work as our intercessor. And these two camps argued with such force of character that it seemed the church might suffer a schism! (I know it is hard to imagine that today). Neither could bear the thought of their brothers confounding paganism for Jesus! And when you word it like that, you can see why it seemed so central to the message of Seventh-day Adventists.
But it wasn’t. You can believe in the 490 years of Daniel 9, the 2300 years of Daniel 8, and their fulfillments that pointed to Christ’s work as Sacrifice and Priest. You can believe in the ongoing judgment, the future reward of the saved and, later, of the lost. You can believe and teach that Babylon is fallen because of her false doctrines of soul-immortality and Sunday sacredness. You can believe in Jesus and have faith in His life and in His testimony through Ellen White. You can believe intelligently in all these things without even having an opinion about the meaning of the daily in Daniel 8-12.
And that is why Ellen White said that on that point that was causing such agitation, silence was eloquence.
And so, considering these things, I am content that you and I do not make a mountain out of our molehill of difference.
But, you say, it is a mountain. You say, “We can’t fear God unless we know who He is.”
Indeed, to know God the Father and His Son is life eternal. There is nothing well to glory in but that you know Him, and that you know that He is the one that exercises loving kindness and righteousness and judgment in the earth. Jeremiah 9:23-24. In the beginning the Word was God and the Word was with God.
You can believe that Jesus left his heavenly throne, came to earth, took the form of a weak man, lived a life of obedience and suffering, gained a victory for us all, took all our sins as a Divine-human man, and paid our penalty. You can believe that He rose again, responding by his Divinity to the Father’s call to him to rise. You can believe that He took up his role as our Advocate and Priest, a comforter who 1800 years later became our Judge. You can believe that He lives with us here on earth by His Spirit, and that He will pour out the Holy Spirit on the sealed persons before leaving His work as Intercessor.
You can believe all these things about Jesus, and thousands of more things about Him, without having any opinion about Him before “the beginning.” You can know him savingly, the way patriarchs and prophets knew him when they had the sanctuary service to teach them the saving knowledge. They feared Him knowing those things.
God’s Plan to Save us from Deception
Generally, God’s plan has been to use the gifts of the Spirit to save us from deception. Those gifts include the Spirit of Prophecy.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; . . .13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, . . . .14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
And in the case of the Adventist church and its relation to the truth about the Godhead, it was Ellen White that spurred change.
But she wasn’t the first. Just as she wasn’t shown the evils of the shut-door theory until Bible study had exposed them, just as she wasn’t shown the truth about Sabbath-sundown opening until Andrews had studied it, just so she didn’t start making her surprising statements regarding the Godhead until after Camden Lacey began lecturing on the topic in 1896. (The “life original, unborrowed, underived statement” can be found in Ms 22, 1898. The “self-existent” statement in Ms 101, 1897. The “three great powers of heaven” statements begin in 1900. The “third person of the Godhead” statements began with Lt 8, 1896.) After his lectures, within four years, the primary key statements that slowly led the church towards a belief in Christ’s eternal pre-existence and in three persons in the Godhead, were penned.
Some confusion exists today because Dr. Kellogg eventually tried to piggy-back his pantheism onto the new ideas Adventists were thinking about the Godhead. He had been reproved for spiritualizing God’s personal existence, making God into an ever-present power. When this was strongly opposed by Ellen White (who began at that time to make many statements about God’s “personality” in the sense of God’s “person”) he was stymied. A few years later he tried again. This time he admitted that the Father and Son have personalities, but alleged that the Spirit was everywhere, the very pantheistic lifeforce he had earlier proposed.
But this did not convert his errors into truths. The Spirit moves and chooses to dwell in some hearts while withdrawing from others. The Holy Spirit is not an everywhere-present force as Kellogg alleged.
Ellen White, in Australia where Lacey had already been teaching regarding three persons in the Godhead, had made statements that countered even the future form of Kellogg’s error.
The Lord instructed us that this was the place in which we should locate, and we have had every reason to think that we are in the right place. We have been brought together as a school, and we need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds, unseen by human eyes, that the Lord God is our Keeper and Helper. He hears every word we utter and knows every thought of the mind. Ms66, 1899.11
Such statements seem to have anticipated the confusion that would come in our day. In Ellen’s day the idea of “three” was itself a new idea to some. And by 1906 it had been accepted by many Adventists. Kellogg went further and tried to illustrate the three by means of nature’s glories. He shouldn’t have done that. God is above discussion. In opposing him Ellen made some of her strongest statements. Emphasis below is supplied.
All these spiritualistic representations are simply nothingness. They are imperfect, untrue. They weaken and diminish the Majesty which no earthly likeness can be compared to. God cannot be compared with the things His hands have made. These are mere earthly things, suffering under the curse of God because of the sins of man. The Father cannot be described by the things of earth. The Father is all the fulness of the Godhead bodily and is invisible to mortal sight.
The Son is all the fulness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be “the express image of His person.” “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Here is shown the personality of the Father.
The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fulness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Savior. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ. Ms21, 1906, para 9-11
Who is the Holy Spirit?
Though Ellen White turned the tide in the Adventist church by her statements regarding the “three great powers,” she also made many statements to the effect that Christ lives in our heart through the Holy Spirit. Perhaps the clearest of these is below. Here she explains why Jesus said “I will come to you” when referring to the future gift of the Holy Spirit.
Before offering Himself as the sacrificial victim, Christ sought for the most essential and complete gift to bestow upon His followers, a gift that would bring within their reach the boundless resources of grace. “I will pray the Father,” He said, “and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you.” John 14:16-18, margin.
Before this the Spirit had been in the world; from the very beginning of the work of redemption He had been moving upon men’s hearts. But while Christ was on earth, the disciples had desired no other helper. Not until they were deprived of His presence would they feel their need of the Spirit, and then He would come.
The Holy Spirit is Christ’s representative, but divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally. Therefore it was for their interest that He should go to the Father, and send the Spirit to be His successor on earth. No one could then have any advantage because of his location or his personal contact with Christ. By the Spirit the Saviour would be accessible to all. In this sense He would be nearer to them than if He had not ascended on high. DA 668-669
When we say that Abraham Lincoln won the civil war, we mean that his armies did the job. When I say, “my knee” I mean part of me. But when I say, “my friend” I mean a person outside of me. In like manner, when the Bible talks about Christ’s followers, they are not part of Him. When it speaks of His hair, that is part of Him.
But what about His Spirit? From the Desire of Ages quote above we learn that the Spirit abides with us as Christ’s representative. But our collective ignorance of Christ’s Spirit (which is at times described as a personal being, as in Acts 13:2) makes it difficult for us (impossible for us?) to comprehend how Christ’s Spirit could represent him so thoroughly as to be called “Christ in us.” Here we are out of our realm.
The newly released writings in 2015 include a few of these statements where the Spirit in us is identified as Christ. And the best I can make of harmonizing these with Desire of Ages is that we are reading about a superhuman representation, that the Spirit represents Christ so well as to be practically Him.
If you harmonize the statements another way, I will not fault you. If you make your way a criterion for faithfulness, or the message for our time, I will fault you gravely.
My Story and Proverbs 8
The antitrinitarian movement that has grown to such large proportions in the last decade, existed 30 years ago also. It was one Mr. Scott Stanley, who had formerly been one of my work supervisors in academy, who approached me in 1990, with his strain of the message. Scott explained that there had been two (from the first page of Patriarchs and Prophets) in the Godhead, the Father and the Son. He explained that an ambitious angel, a ministering spirit, aspired to join that two-some and to make a trinity. He gave me quite a Bible study on this as my young mind tried to wrap itself around the ideas he was presenting.
A prominent passage in his Bible study was Proverbs 8. There, he showed me, was the record of Jesus being born to the Father before the creation of the world. These were the two key verses:
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
He showed convincingly that this was speaking of Jesus. And he showed that the Hebrew word for “brought forth” means “to be born.” In the following verse it is rendered “calve.”
Job 39:1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?
I left that study shaken up. I went home, prayed earnestly for light, and studied as earnestly as I had prayed. Here is what I found:
First, the Hebrew word “khool” doesn’t mean “give birth.” Rather, it means “to twist or twirl” or to “writhe.” It is the latter meaning that lends itself to the pain involved in child bearing. The word also has a figurative meaning, “to wait.” And that is how it is used first in scripture. Khool is rendered “stayed” in the following verse.
Gen 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
A little more study convinced me that writhing in pain could not describe any birth prior to the curse, for that is when pain became part of birth.
Before my study was over I had discovered that Ellen White’s use of Matthew 28:19 harmonized well with the idea that there are three persons in the Godhead.
But back then the antitrinitarian movement was more fanatical, even if less successful. Stanley was advocating separation from the apostate Adventist Church. And he alleged tampering with Ellen White’s writings by such persons as Froom or others. Such accusations have largely been muted now, and the accusers have been roundly shown to have been living in violation of the 9th Commandment.
Today, the use of Proverbs 8 remains from what he presented as a common, but misguided evidence used to oppose the idea that Jesus has existed eternally. (Another reading of the passage will show that Wisdom was established from “the beginning” and was like one brought up with God, of similar age.)
But one modern advocate of non-trinitarianism is Mr. Nader of Australia. I mention him by name because he seems to be revising the dangerous argument that some of Ellen White’s materials have been garbled. It began, it seems, with his shock at finding the following statement:
As the saints in the kingdom of God are accepted in the beloved, they hear: “Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” And then the golden harps are touched, and the music flows all through the heavenly host, and they fall down and worship the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And then what? What next did I see? Ms139, 1906 para 32.
Our bodies are temples for the Holy Spirit, and temples are for worship. But nonetheless, this is the only statement known to include a reference to worshipping the Holy Spirit. And in this particular sermon, Ellen White made several other statements a few minutes earlier regarding these same Three.
This is the work that is to rest upon us. And then what? Why, it says, “Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Three personalities; and these three personalities are the pledged power from God that His people shall have, if they have been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Now there is no excuse for souls to be left in ignorance and weakness if they will be gospel believers, if they will carry out these principles, and know that the three great Worthies, the Powers in heaven, are pledged to the church of God that will work in harmony with Christ’s teachings. Ms139, 1906, para 15.
When one is offended at this statement to the point of suggesting that it is not inspired, one is on very dangerous ground. That is the ground that others have walked on earlier. And it is fearful. But for everyone to know, Ellen White authorized the transcripts made of her sermons up to a certain point before her death. At that point, some transcripts (like Ms 139, 1906) were yet to be approved and published when she died. There is no good reason to doubt she would have done with this transcript differently than she did with hundreds before it, had she lived. (Large numbers of articles in the papers were derived from such transcripts and even a section of Counsels to Parents, Teachers and Students was compiled from transcripts of her discussion of its key subjects.)
Ellen White often, in the context of the Kellogg apostasy, alluded to the three persons of the Godhead. It was their “distinct personality” that Kellogg’s early views denied. While the distinct nature of the third person of the Godhead is plain in the following paragraph, and while “personality” simply means “person” in most 19th century writings on such things, still we should admit that there are things hard to be understood in the following paragraph. I do not tell you, non-trinitarian friend, what it means for the Spirit to personify Christ. And I cannot think highly of someone who with great confidence tries to tell me what it means.
The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. We may have the Holy Spirit if we ask for it and make it [a] habit to turn to and trust in God rather than in any finite human agent who may make mistakes. Ms93.1893.8
For more on the idea of “three” see Ms27a, 1900. Let’s move on to somethings we can easily agree on.
What my Friends Get Right:
My non-trinitarian friends are certainly right that there is only one God, the Father. (See John 17:2-3). The word God is used that way very many times in Scripture. And in those many cases it means “the ultimate executive of the universe.” So there is just one, and that is the Father.
(There is another sense to the word “God” that means simply “one with the attributes of Divinity.” That sense would include Jesus as you see in John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:8. And the Spirit is the third person of the “godhead” in that sense. That is why our bodies are temples to the Spirit.)
But we shouldn’t deny to our non-trinitarian friends the pleasure of showing us that there is One True God, again, in that ultimate sense.
And our friends are correct that when the Bible says the Father and Jesus are one, it is a reference to their purpose, not to their person. So the middle-age dark ideas of one head with three faces, we all consider to be badly misguided.
And non-trinitarians show correctly that in the future even Jesus will be subject to the Father. That is true. It is the plain teaching of 1 Corinthians 15.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Our friends are also basically right that we should not be directing our prayers to the Holy Spirit. Our instructions are to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.
(But on that last point, some non-trinitarians makes a mistake. When the Bible says that Jesus is the one mediator between God and man, that does not mean He is the one intercessor. A mediator makes peace. An intercessor prays. And so men and angels and the Holy Spirit may all make intercession. But only Jesus is the mediator. The Catholic idea of many mediators is completely unlike the Adventist idea of many praying persons.)
Summary and Conclusion
Some of the more radical non-trinitarians say that we should not worship the same God as Rome. That is a tricky idea. It would be like Jesus telling the Jews not to worship the same God as the Sanhedrin. It would be like Paul telling the Athenians that they were worshipping the wrong God when he mentioned the altar to the unknown God.
In reality, the Bible calls men to come to higher understanding of God. But it does not ask Luther to accuse the Catholics of worshipping a separate deity. It does not ask James White to accuse Luther of doing that. And it does not ask non-trinitarians to talk that way either. If they do, they do it on their own initiative.
There is far more that could be written relative to this subject. (And books have been written). But here are my key points in review:
First, the Three Angel’s Messages are to unite us in an outward aiming mission to the whole world.
Second, the pioneers didn’t understand part of that mission to be to spread their non-trinitarian ideas.
Third, Ellen White became the agent of God in muting those non-trinitarian sentiments in a number of ways.
Fourth, it was a strange view of the Trinity found in many creeds that bothered several of the pioneers.
Fifth, only the sloppiest reading of the actual documents regarding the alpha of apostasy would lead a thoughtful person to think that Kellogg’s acceptance of the Trinity was a key component of it. On the contrary, his views were the dangerous alpha both before and after he became trinitarian. And his views of the Spirit in both cases were closer to non-trinitarian views held today than to Ellen White’s view of a distinct third person.
Sixth, the non-trinitarians get a lot of things right. Only the Father and the Son are to be exalted in our teachings. The Spirit has neither instructed us to exalt the Spirit, nor given us a model of the apostles doing so. We certainly want more of the Spirit in our lives, but we should yet follow our directions when praising God.
Seventh, we should know the Bible teaching about the timing and reality of the Father begetting the Son. We should understand the idea of Sonship related to character that predated the idea of birth.
Finally, it is Satan that would take us away from our work. And I hope I haven’t helped him by giving you 30 minutes of reading on this topic. My aim is to get you back to helping me with the work.
The End. Amen. Godhead Document no appendix <= this is a link to downloadable version.
[i] Take the titles of publications authored by J. H. Waggoner, J. N. Loughborough, J. N. Andrews, and Joseph Bates, for example. Not counting periodicals, they authored a total of 79 printed items with about 8,500 pages of material. We select these four men as four that wrote on the issue of the Godhead and who also published widely for the church. How many of those 79 publications were dedicated to key topics?
There were seven on the sanctuary and on Investigative Judgment. Twenty-four on the Sabbath. Then another nine on two or more ideas from the Three Angel’s Massages. Four were written on the Law of God or on the Covenants. Ten were written about death or hell or spiritualism. Three were on apocalyptic prophecy. Two each addressed the ministry of Ellen White, spiritual gifts, church finance, church order, America in Prophecy, the Second Coming, personal salvation, or autobiographies of the authors. One was Haskell’s Bible Handbook on all kinds of topics. The other five included one each on Advent History, Baptism, Health, Religious Freedom, and the Story of Redemption. Haskell’s 1905 Daniel the Prophet directly referred to “the Great Trinity,” showing how much influence Ellen White’s statements had had. (Earlier and later editions of that book do not have this wording.) Some have also noted that the 1908 hymnal designed and published by the General Conference included a section of praise for the “Trinity.”
[ii] J.H. Waggoner, The Atonement In The Light Of Nature And Revelation, 1884, pp. 164, 165
[iii] He even neglected some excellent opportunities to distance himself from Trinitarians. See TRIMM 2.2 where he compares the Godhead to a firm of three persons acting in concert. This is in a refutation of Greek Orthodox triple baptism. On another occasion, it seems that he actually did become a Trinitarian by 1896. See Review and Herald,
1896, Vol. 73, No. 43, pg.685. But later statements (1898) counter this idea, though he at least maintained believe in three persons rather than two. See Looking unto Jesus, pg. 10
68 comments
Jon shumway
Could not this controversy end right now if we all just heed this counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy?
“I say, and have ever said, that I will not engage in controversy with any one in regard to the nature and personality of God. Let those who try to describe God know that on such a subject silence is eloquence. Let the Scriptures be read in simple faith, and let each one form his conceptions of God from his inspired word.
No human mind can comprehend God. No man hath seen him at any time. We are as ignorant of God as little children. But as little children we may love and obey Him.” -SpM 329.
Let us all refuse to “enter controversy with anyone in regard to the nature and personality of God”, thereby, wax eloquent on the question. Recognizing our childlike ignorance of the mystery of God’s nature, rather, focus our attention on experiencing the “mystery of godliness” as God’s loving, trusting & obedient children.
David Symons
Perhaps, if you have time, you could review my lesson notes on the Divinity of Christ. I am just not sure how to get you the article. Email?
David Symons
Hello Mr. Prewitt,
I hope you are well. I am trying to understand what you mean that “we don’t know anything about the Spirit’s substance. We don’t know anything about the Spirit’s eternal pre-existence.” Do you mean that we cannot know if the Spirit was eternal? What about Hebrews 9:14, which calls Him the “eternal Spirit.”
Please pray for me, as I am teaching a class called “Fundamentals of the Christian Faith, and I am supposed to teach on this topic. Thank you for this article.
P.S. I am in Africa right now, but I just recently came from Cambodia, where I saw the great need of labourers you alluded to. I believe God brought me here to work here for some time, but I am praying about an opportunity to go to SE Asia to work for souls.
I am a bit reluctant to do so, as I have practically no experience in working for non-Christians, but I am praying that God will show me the way. I am open to engaging in this work, and I am praying for that which you are doing there right now.
God bless,
David
Ryan Tacklin
I can certainly appreciate your approach in comparison to many other SDA’s researching and preaching to defend the current SDA views on the trinity.
What I have found evident from a SDA historic perspective, is that while you may certainly stake a claim the by the early 1900s the SDA church as whole accepting or open to various understandings regarding the “trinity”.
SDA Historic evidence clearly shows that the church as a whole taught Christ was indeed the only begotten Son of God from the days of eternity, prior to and independent of the incarnation at Bethlehem. The area in which the Father and Son relationship was brought up the most in was when referring to the controversy in heaven between Christ and Satan. The Father and Son relationship played a vital piece and was indeed central in understanding the controversy as shown in the Bible, Spirit of Prophecy, and in so many articles from the periodicals for even a few decades after the death of Ellen White. Also, I do believe that understanding the relationship of the Father and Son helps to paint a true picture or more powerful view on the plan of redemption and the sacrifice it took for God to give us His only begotten Son as the risk of eternal loss.
eprewitt
Hi Ryan. The question, not easily answered by someone weighing all evidence, is what did “son” mean before wombs existed. I say it denoted sameness. You, perhaps, say it denoted “origin.” Well, the article is above.
John Rey Artiaga
The author admitted the truthfulness of the Truth about God and Christ and admitted that egw and the rest of the pioneers where non-trinitarians but he still don’t believe it but instead still adhering to the Trinity doctrine..for some reasons I don’t know ..
This is nice article confessing the truth about the Father and His Son ..yet it takes God’s Spirit to enlighten the author and to make him believe about God and Christ
eprewitt
John, I never admitted that Ellen White was non trinitarian. And as you say you don’t know why I believe as I do, it is because of what she has written.
Nick
Great article and research! Love the comments too. Regarding one of the comments….Sorry Eugene but I Gotta go with Richard Mendoza on the creed statement. Great article here.
https://ssnet.org/blog/creeds-and-fundamental-beliefs/
Eugene Prewitt
Thank you, Nick. I read the article and replied to it at the link provided. Be faithful.
Denver
Eugene
you wrote: “And in Job 38, the angels are called “the sons of God.”
In gratitude for both the plainly diligent labour and the delightfully erudite insight in this article, I thank you most heartily for it. It is a treasure trove of pertinent information for the searcher.
I quoted you above because you also quoted Mrs White to the effect that we ought to exercise great caution in what we say on this topic.
Acknowledging the common Hebrew manner of repetition in literature, and that the full text of the Job 38: 7 does in fact mention both the morning stars and the sons of God in close proximity, nowhere in Job 38 does God actually call angels the sons of God.
Which I find interesting because in the beginning of that same book, Job, when there comes a time that the sons of God meet with Him in heaven, Satan doesn’t come there in his capacity as an angel but in his capacity as the representative of earth. When questioned by God as to where he comes from (a telling inquiry in this context, hinting at the criteria for admittance) he replies in a most singular manner, claiming that he is the legitimate representative from the earth as he goes to and fro in it and walks up and down in it. He plays the barrack’s room lawyer with God here as he cannot honestly answer the question of his origins since that would invalidate his entire rebellion in front of all creation’s representatives, but he quotes the principle (law) which God gave to Abraham regarding the land of Canaan, that wherever Abraham walked in the land God would give it to him and his children forever.
If there is a better example of the angels being called the sons of God in scripture, perhaps you could share it?
B my count there are eleven uses of the phrase in scripture and every single one of them refers to creatures of men of this earth, except the three in Job which in context two of the three (Job 1 and 2*) plainly do not refer to angels and the third is from Job 38 and in doubt.
*From my reading of scripture these meetings in heaven are of the same type as referenced in Isaiah 66: 23. They refer to flesh, while angels are “ministering spirits”. Whatever we understand by these terms (flesh and spirit) God plainly distinguishes between them. Or have I got this completely muddled?
DERRICK GILLESPIE
JUST FOR THE RECORD!! The pioneers from as early as in the 1870s began to see God as a GROUP of “distinct” or SEPARATE “personages” or “beings” sharing one name as a “triune Deity” or “triune Jehovah”. Yes! EVEN BEFORE 1888 THE SDA PIONEERS STARTED TO SEE GOD AS A GROUP, A SPECIE OF *SEPARATE *BEINGS, A “TRINITY” OF “PERSONAGES”, A GENERIC “HE” OR “HIM”, OR A *”TRIUNE” DIVINITY (AND THEY WORSHIPED GOD OR DIVINITY AS A GROUP FROM THE 1840s)! Proof?
“In the former dispensations God was known by such appellations as, The Lord God, The Almighty God, The I Am, and The Jehovah God. But in the ordinance of baptism (according to the gospel commission), in which ordinance we take upon us the name of the God we worship, he is known as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Now if this be the truth, as it most certainly is, then it follows that to believe and confess this truth is to answer a good conscience toward God… when we are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as the true and living God, our Creator, Preserver, and Saviour, we at once and forever renounce and separate ourselves from every kind and species of idolatry and false worship.”
—Review and Herald, March 16, 1876, pg. 82
“…let us [SDAs] consecrate to Him [“the Lord” our God] all that we are, and all that we have, and then may we all unite to swell the songs, “Praise God, from whom all blessings flow; Praise him, all creatures here below; Praise him above, ye heavenly host; Praise Father, Son, *AND Holy Ghost.”
—E.G. White, Review and Herald, January 4, 1881
As soon as 1888 was past the above expressed sentiments (i.e. God is a divine group of *separate beings; not one being with three heads) took on greater momentum among the SDA pioneers (including key ones like E.J. Waggoner and Uriah Smith):
“… as the church on earth is working by the direct command and agency of three distinct personages in heaven for the increase of the heavenly family, in whose name shall we adopt them into this family ? “In the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Matt. 28 :19.”
—“THE TRINITY”, Signs of the Times, October 15, 1890, pg. 315
“… in the course of the lessons as opportunity occurs you will impress upon the children the relation in which they stand to God the Father as their Creator; to *God the Son (!!!) as their Redeemer; and to God the Holy Ghost (!!!) as their Sanctifier.”
—E.J. Waggoner, Present Truth (UK), February 15, 1894, p. 101
“Do the Scriptures warrant praise to and worship of the Holy Sprint? …in the formula for baptism, the name “Holy Ghost,” or” Holy Spirit,” is associated with that of the Father and the Son. And if the name can be used thus, why could it not properly stand as a part of the same *TRINITY in the hymn of praise, “Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost”?”
— Uriah Smith (“U.S.”), In the Question Chair, Review and Herald, 1896, Vol. 73, No. 43, pg. 685
“Inseparable from the Father in the creation of all things,inseparable from him in the ordaining of law and the establishing of government through all his glorious realms, he [Jesus] is not to be separated from him in the awe-inspiring scenes of Sinai.…Thisunion between the Father and the Son does not detract from either, but strengthens both. Through it, in connection with the Holy Spirit, we have all of Deity [or all of God].”
—Uriah Smith, Looking Unto Jesus, 1898, pg. pgs. 17-18
Notice above that even Uriah Smith, before his 1903 death, had begun to deem “all of Deity” (or all of God) as forming a “trinity” that’s worshiped, or, as the Sign of the Times of Dec. 15,1890 puts it, a heavenly group of “three distinct PERSONAGES” but bearing one NAME (singular). In 1898 Uriah Smith described “all of Deity” (or God) as “the union between the Father and the Son” “in connection with the Holy Spirit” and he (just like Mrs White) amazingly (as seen quoted above) defended the worship of the Holy Spirit in the doxology; a doxology sung among SDAs from as early as the 1840s: “Praise God from whom all blessings flow…praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost”.
And notice three most crucial things here. First, Uriah Smith knew full well that the word “trinity” when applied to the Godhead meant “three persons” of divinity, not just two, yet he personally applied the word to the Godhead, but only after 1888. Second, he also knew that the word “Deity” when capitalized means God or Jehovah our God, and yet he did not refrain after 1888 from describing “all of Deity” or all of who God is as a “trinity” of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit united, and he affirmed all three were worthy of praise as belonging to “the same trinity”; inclusive of the Holy Spirit. Third, notice that Mrs White freely affirmed the song “Praise God from who all blessings flow, praise *HIM all creatures…praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost”. Notice that the word “HIM” in the doxology did not stop at only the Father of Jesus, but it included the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in that united “HIM”; just as seen in the picture quote here from the 1876 Review and Herald!!
I think our pioneers started to embrace the truth of a triune God (but of separate *BEINGS) much earlier than some do realize, despite it took some time for them to work out the details about the distinct personality of the “three BEINGS” involved…i.e. “three LIVING persons” of divinity who are all worshipped or served as Jehovah our God, since, as Jesus himself said in Matthew 4:10, only who is our God we should worship or serve in this sense! And obviously the pioneers realized that to worship God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit (separate beings of divinity) this was obeying the first of the Ten Commandments; not disobeying it as some (the misguided dissidents) mistakenly believe. No wonder then that by the early 1900s the SDA pioneers in union with Mrs White herself were freely saying the following about the “three beings” of the Godhead (i.e. before 1915 when Mrs White died):
“God is worshipped because He is Creator; and God means the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; for all are mentioned as having part in creation .” —The Present Truth (SDA periodical), Vol. 29, No. 48. Nov. 27, 1913, p. 757
“Let Him [the Spirit] make you know, beloved, how surprisingly beautiful are the blended personalities of our *TRIUNE God manifested by the personal presence of the Holy Ghost.”
—“Blended Personalities”, Review and Herald, Vol. 77, April 3, 1900, pg. 210
“After we have formed a union with the great threefold Power [or triune Sovereign or Ruler; singular], we shall regard our duty toward the members of God’s family with a sacred awe. We shall seek to answer the prayer, “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven,” by living pure, sanctified lives, showing the world how the will of God is done in heaven.”
—E.G. White, Signs of the Times, June 19, 1901
“We art children of a Father with “all comfort” in his holding; Jesus is our “Elder Brother” and his blood for us he gave; While the Holy Ghost, “the Comforter,” each heart by truth is molding. So the great, *TRIUNE JEHOVAH is omnipotent to save; he Is building mansions” for us… as children, we obey him. And the “image” and the ‘likeness” lost, by grace shall be restored”
—-Signs of the Times, January 6, 1904, Vol. 30 (No. 1), pg. 1
“In the afternoon, at 3: 30 I conducted a singular baptismal service in the home of a sick sister who, although bedridden, anxiously desired a burial with Christ. A bath tub was procured, and after a straight talk on the necessity of baptism and salvation through it, I buried Sister Jennie Bagley in the name of the TRIUNE Deity…..”
—J. K. Humphry, Atlantic Union Gleaner, August 2, 1905, Vol. 4 (No. 30), pgs. 357-8
“May we all in glory praise The TRIUNE through endless days.”
—The Present Truth, March 23, 1905 , Vol.21 (No. 12) p.183
*NOTE: The word “triune” as applied to divinity simply meant the following to the pioneers (as the American English dictionary of their time made plain):
“Three in one; an epithet applied to God, to express the unity of the Godhead in a trinity of persons.”
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Triune
So to Mrs White (and the other pioneers), to be baptized in the name of the “triune Jehovah” meant:
“By our baptismal pledge we avouched and solemnly confessed the Lord Jehovah as our Ruler. We virtually took a solemn oath, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, that henceforth our lives would be merged into the life of these three great agencies”
—E.G. White, Manuscript 67, 1907
ENOUGH SAID! BUT IF YOU WISH TO SEE MORE ON “THE TRIUNE GOD” OF THE SDA PIONEERS SEE THE LINKS BELOW:
https://web.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10219673471853636&set=pb.1422297221.-2207520000.1553505302.&type=3&theater
https://web.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10218938118390259&set=a.1326983100956&type=3&permPage=1
And just in case you wish to better understand what Mrs White meant by “the Father and Son alone are to be exalted” in light of the pioneers fully teaching that:
“… the Godhead is composed of three personal *BEINGS, and these three are one. The oneness of the Godhead must, then, consist not in personality, but in some other kind of oneness. Let us apply the Bible idea of oneness of *individuals to the Godhead, and see if it will contradict the possibility of three or more individuals being called one. We have two visible institutions in this world that are Bible illustrations of God’s idea of oneness, marriage and the church.”
—Review and Herald, Vol. 89; Dec. 19, 1912; No. 51, pg. 5
“God is worshipped because He is Creator; and God means the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; for all are mentioned as having part in creation .”
—The Present Truth (SDA periodical), Vol. 29, No. 48. Nov. 27, 1913, p. 757
TO HARMONIZE IT ALL GO TO THIS EYE-OPENING LINK:
https://web.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10219686469178561&set=pb.1422297221.-2207520000.1553505302.&type=3&theater
Joerg
Eugene,
the 3-Angels-Message for SDA Trinitarians and for SDA Anti-Trinitarians has a complete different content, it is excluding each other.
And when it comes to the point, who the god is to be worshipped, and when both groups will give the final call, the world will find it out.
bless you,
Joerg
Eugene Prewitt
Oh, I think you are wrong. But I like the idea that maybe both groups will get busy and give the message to the world.
Joerg
Eugene, in my own view the truth we believe for ourselves should be the the same to be shared with other people. I see no difference. And this truth was expressed by the fundamental principles. Like any other church we can see very clearly what they believed, because it was expressed very carefully exactly for that reason. There is no doubt.
…[heavily truncated]
Kellogg and his co-workers began to remove the “pillars of our faith”, and the “personality of God” is “everything” for us as a people? This sounds not like a side issue, but very much as one pillar of our faith.
How can this ever be a side issue?
The Sabbath deals with worship, right? It is the sign of the creator, right?
– But the 4. commandment only shows me, WHEN to worship and WHY.
– but the 1. commandment tells me WHO is to be worshipped, no one else.
– the 2. commandment tells me WHAT is to be worshipped. Every man made image or philosophical construct is an idol, worshipping a false god.
– the 3. commandment tells me HOW to worship
Is it possible to worship on the right day, but reject the son of god, really being the son of god?
Yes, this is what the jews did.
It is hard for me to imagine, how it should be possible to preach the 3-Angels-Message, pro-trins and anti-trins together.
But this is what you claim, that might be possible.
Yes, perhaps they all do it according to their own understanding, but the messages have different contents, if it comes to the point who the god is to be worshipped (1. message).
The understanding of the “babylonian wine” will be different, because there is a diffenet understanding of what false teachings are, spreaded by Rome and its daughters (2. message).
And it will be a complete different understanding of what the “commandments of god” are, if it comes to the commandments 1.-3. (3. message).
They worship a god, the other group will call a heresy or a false doctrine.
I can only imagine to give the same message, if you reduce the message to the few points in common. But what are these? Is it the sabbath only? But only if you disconnect it from all the other biblical truths.
And if some of the advent pioneers have described Luther, Zwingli, etc. to have the same god – they surely did not think in the context of the 3E-message. Yes, also the reformers were faithful to god as they understood him by their own conscience, but that does not mean, to deal with any side issue if it comes to the personality of god and his only begotten son.
Bless you,
Joerg
Eugene Prewitt
Dear Joerg,
I truncated your long note, removing the part about the personality of God. Yes, the fact that God is not merely an essence or a force is a central truth. We must believe that God exists as a person and that He rewards those who diligently seek him. I think you have highly misunderstood this topic even though you have devoted considerable time to studying it.
And, yes, if the anti-trin views me as worshiping a different false God and as taking God’s name in vain, then you are right. He and I can’t work together. He considers me drunk with Babylon’s wine. And I never expect him to do much warning of the world. I expect his sad life to degenerate into sectarian arguments with trinitarian Adventists as he becomes a tool to keep people away from the work.
But as I said in my earlier reply, such a position (that you and I worship different a different God) is completely foreign to both the writings of Ellen White and to the pioneers. And when you fault the pioneers who viewed Luther and Zwingli as worshiping the true God, you fault Ellen White. And if you do that, beware of yourself and do not use her as an authority elsewhere.
Joerg
Eugene, thank you for reply. Well, I am with you, so far as you say, that the conference would have no authority in a case if the world representative majoprity is out of the decisions. On the other Hand we see very clearly in the church history, that majority alone can never be the only criteria.
But what is the connection to the topic in this part of your blog, called “The Godhead”?
When the general conference, which EGW refered to be the highest autority on earth, is in harmony with all brethren in the whole body of organisation, and in this harmony the conference published a set of fundamental principles in the official year books, as the main points of our faith, and it is published again and again unchanged over several decades, which was even puiblished before in magazines, and it is published nearly from the beginning of our church organisation (1872) right to the death of the prophet (till 1914) and beyond (till 1930). And even the prophet confirmed these main points of our faith “as we hold them today”, not to be changed. Of course this does not mean any expressions or extensions, which are in harmony, but in my view, new points of faith must not contradict.
“He does not give one man new light contrary to the established faith of the body.” {5T 292.2}.
“Let none seek to tear away the foundations of our faith—the foundations that were laid at the beginning of our work by prayerful study of the word and by revelation. Upon these foundations we have been building for the last fifty years. Men may suppose that they have found a new way and that they can lay a stronger foundation than that which has been laid. But this is a great deception. Other foundation can no man lay than that which has been laid. {8T 297.1}
In the past many have undertaken the building of a new faith, the establishment of new principles. But how long did their building stand? It soon fell, for it was not founded upon the Rock. {8T 297.2} ”
“The leading points of our faith as we hold them today were firmly established. Point after point was clearly defined, and all the brethren came into harmony. The whole company of believers were united in the truth. There were those who came in with strange doctrines, but we were never afraid to meet them. Our experience was wonderfully established by the revelation of the Holy Spirit (MS 135, 1903).”
“We are God’s commandment-keeping people. For the past fifty years every phase of heresy has been brought to bear upon us, to becloud our minds regarding the teaching of the word,—especially concerning the ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, and the message of heaven for these last days, as given by the angels of the fourteenth chapter of Revelation. Messages of every order and kind have been urged upon Seventh-day Adventists, to take the place of the truth which, point by point, has been sought out by prayerful study, and testified to by the miracle-working power of the Lord. But the way-marks which have made us what we are, are to be preserved, and they will be preserved, as God has signified through His word and the testimony of His Spirit. He calls upon us to hold firmly, with the grip of faith, to the fundamental principles that are based upon unquestionable authority. {SpTB02 59.1}”
And this is exactly what is claimed in the preample of the “fundamental principles” (1889):
“As elsewhere stated, Seventh-day Adventists have no creed but the Bible; but they hold to
certain well-defined points of faith, for which they feel prepared to give a reason ”to every man
that asketh” them. The following propositions may be taken as a summary of the principal
features of their religious faith, upon which there is, so far as we know, entire unanimity
throughout the body. They believe, —”
Do you really believe, that the general conference had no authority in publishing these 25/28 main points of our faith, being in harmony with the biblical truth?
And, if this was true, and if, as the statements of EGW say, this points of our faith were “based upon unquestionable authority” – and by the way, this is the same expression she used to describe the words of Christ in quoting the Scripures, this words were also “based upon unquestionable authority”, because the were based on the Word of God – on which autority are the fundamental beliefs based, which we hold today, since 1980, which are contradicting the old ones, in that way, that no one can be baptized and be accepted in church fellowship who agrees to all of the older 28 fundamental principles.
What is considered as heresy in the times of EGW, this is consideres as biblical truth today.
And what was consideres as truth in that times of EGW, this is considered and handeled as heresy today.
It is another god we worship. Our religion has changed. How does it feel to live in a time, when prophecy is fulfiled?
Do you really believe, that the general conference has biblical authority – even if they are in majority – in verifying that fundamental beliefs as truth, which we hold tody, but which are clearly contradicting the old ones?
god bless you.
Joerg
Eugene Prewitt
Hi Joerg,
You raise many good questions. Let me address some of them one at a time.
First, the church has authority that matches its responsibilities. It has never had a responsibility to tell its members what they must believe, and so has no authority to tell us what we should believe. It does have responsibility to share with the world what we believe. And so it does have authority to share with the world what is generally believed among us.
The idea that trins and non-trins worship a different God is far different than was believed by the pioneers you refer to. They viewed Luther and Zwingli and Newton and Wesley to be worshiping the very same God that we worship, albeit with somewhat less information. You can’t take the “different God” position and still have much respect for the Great Controversy which has God speaking through His chosen agents through the ages.
Which truth must we not contradict from old times? Oh, that was highly specified. It wasn’t our view of the shut door. It wasn’t our view of when Sabbath begins on Friday. It wasn’t our view of the beast of Revelation 17. And nor was it our view of the nature of the Spirit (as my article well shows). Rather it was the truth about the Sabbath, the Sanctuary, the mortality of the soul, and the literal Second Coming. The Three Angels’ Messages were our mission and still are.
You are unfortunately nearly correct that in many places persons must submit their agreement to the 28 as written to be baptized. This is a mistaken use of the 28 FBs. It turns them into a creed. And as your quote above shows, a creed beyond Scripture we care not to have.
May God give us success sharing the most important things.
Eugene
Joerg
Hello Eugen,
thank you for providing this site to come into dialogue with thinking people. I am completely with you in that point, that knowledge without studying for myself is kompletely useless. It is interesting for me to read some arguments for the trinity, which I read the first time here, since I’ve been studying on this issue for several years.
Now, I would like to ask you a question:
EGW writes:
I have been shown that no man’s judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but be surrendered. Your error was in persistently maintaining your private judgment of your duty against the voice of the highest authority the Lord has upon the earth. …
{3T 492.2}
… do you believe that the General Conference is really the highest authority that God has uopn the earth?
Eugene Prewitt
I believe that the authority of any vote depends on to what extent it is representative. So if my friend Ted Wilson says “Sunday is holy” that statement would have no authority. It would be a merely personal statement. If a small committee prepares a document for the communication director, that document has very little authority because it represents a very small number of persons. It might be official, but it is not authoritative. If the executive committee votes that congregations may study for themselves regarding the propriety of ordaining local women elders, that decision has a fair bit of authority because it is made by a large number of representative men. It has authority to say what the church policy is, but not authority to say what I should think or do. But when the General Conference in Session, through its properly chosen delegates, makes a statement, that authority is the highest human authority on earth because it represents all of God’s people. But if it voted while most delegates are out of the hall, it has far less authority. And in neither case does it have authority similar to the Bible authority. The Bible tells me what I must do and believe. The church tells me the policies and principles on which union with it are permitted. It is not, even when organized perfectly, an infallible interpreter. But it is, in that case, an authoritative body that can act in harmony with its responsibilities. For more, see my article on the draft and on authority.
Chrissy Distan Ramcharan
?A lot of digestion to do! It has been on my mind since last year May/June 2017. Been studying it, reading about it &… These texts are very clear to me on the Godhead (not Trinity)—Eph 1:7; 1Cor 8:6; Jn 17:3; 1Tim 2:5; Php 2:11; Rev21: 22-23; Jn 8:16-18. Also as I see in the Word of God there are only 2 thrones. If there are 3, then there should be 3 thrones; but ther’s no such picture in Scripture. Look at this scripture: Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. See Rev 5:13 Honor & Praise are being given to The Father & to the Lamb, again not 3 persons. Nevertheless, our main concern is to get the 3 Angels Message out to the world! God bless!??
Eugene Prewitt
Am glad, Chrissy, that you are studying. The Three Angel’s messages warrant our earnest study. I wish we knew as much about the fear of God and regarding the hour of judgment as we do about the Godhead. But regarding your comment on the two thrones, have you ever considered that you are the third throne? We are a temple for the Spirit.
Roy Araya
In other to work in unity to spread the truth, we Must understand and agree on what is truth.(Doctrine)
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that *he may abide* with you for ever.
John 14:16. If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make *our abode* with him. John 14:23
I will not leave you comfortless: *I will come to you.*
John 14:18. Jesus said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. John 7:16. Now, Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 1:9-11
May God our Father lead us into the Truth as it is In Jesus. Then we can be one as Jesus and the Father are One and bring the three angels messages to the World.
Eugene Prewitt
Roy, we only need to agree on some parts of the truth. If someone denies the divinity of Jesus, or His position of Creator, or His substitutionary atonement, then we can’t work together to give the First or Third Angels’ messages. If we despise the gift of the Spirit and appreciate it not, woe to us. But if we disagree on obscure points differing from these, then we may well work together accepting each other in the light of Romans 14.
Milton Hare
I’m in neither camp out of respect for the Bible. As you suggest in different language, we Adventists should have personal rather than fundamental belief in this one area. We should not condemn those who have honest differences. Two thoughts:
“Godhead” derives from a Middle English word meaning Godhood. It was not a group, it was an attribute. It was a synonym for divinity. I’m not a philologist but the word appears to have taken on new meanings over the centuries. Second, the 1 Peter 1:10-12 paragraph appears to equate the Spirit with Christ, both before and after Jesus’s human conception. “Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow (1 Peter 1:11 KJV).” Blessings to you.
Greek
Derrick has already provided evidence why the Son had been begotten already before the Cross, or before the Incarnation. I would only add the standard Trinitarian belief that the Father is indeed the only true God because He is the source of everything as both Cor.8:6 and the Nicene creed affirm. This means Christ’s divinity is the Father’s divinity, and the Spirit’s divinity is the Father’s divinity, for that is all ONE and the SAME divine substance. As, EGW herself put it:
”
“With what firmness and power he uttered these words. The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, ‘I and my Father are one.’ The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes. The Jews understood his meaning, there was no reason why they should misunderstand, and they took up stones to stone him. Jesus looked upon them calmly and unshrinkingly, and said, “Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of these works do ye stone me?” {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 5}
Just like Chris’s begetting in Bethlehem is not to be confused with His begetting in eternity, so too, Ps.2:7 and Acts 13:33 refer to another begetting, not to be confused with the former two, one more closely related to our redemption (really the chief focus of apostolic preaching), namely His resurrection from the dead. At that point, our Saviour became a new kind of being, or a new kind of God-man, one still retaining both divinity and humanity, but this time a new, sinless, immortal body of glorified humanity, unlike the mortal flesh, i.e. our fallen human nature before the Cross.
Even when I disagree with certain things, I too learn many things by reading such articles and studies. So, I sincerely thank both brother Eugene, as well as bro.Derrick for their contribution to this subject, and wish you both great blessings and Divine guidance in your life and ministry for the Lord.
Yours in Christ
Jani M.Greek
reginald stevenson
To make the claim that anti-teinitarians are heretical is dangerous ground to tread on. ” those who play around with the personality of God and Jesus are working as blind men.”
Eugene Prewitt
Reginald has assured me that he is not referring to me in this strong statement. Nevertheless, I would rather that rhetoric be toned down than that it be rachetted up.
Stephen Hill
Thank you very much Eugene
For some down to earth sense on this divisive issue. I was delighted to read it and enjoyed the lightness and the humility in the way you presented the various perspectives on such a challenging topic. Please keep writing on these kinds of themes because the voice of wisdom is so rarely heard, to bring people back to the message.
Richard P Mendoza
The term “Trinity” is voted into the Seventh-day Adventist, Fundamental Beliefs as Fundamental Belief No. 2, followed by FB No. 3 The Eternal Father, FB No. 4 The Eternal Son, and FB No. 5 The Eternal Holy Spirit.
As Seventh Adventists we are not at Liberty to set up her own standard of Fundamental Beliefs.
In order to be a Seventh Day Adventist and be baptized into this church You Must Believe in the Trinity, there is no wiggle room for Anti-Trinitarian theology.
If someone is studying and struggling to understand the Trinity, we don’t cast them out, just as if they were struggling with smoking or some other thing. We give them time and labor with them.
But if they are devout in opposing our fundamental beliefs, and teaching contrary to them, then they have to be dealt with and disfellowshipped
The Seventh Day Adventist Church organization does not hold the position that you can teach people about the Godhead while evading use of the word Trinity.
The Trinity is a VOTED Fundamental Belief, and all those who desire to join the Seventh Day Adventist Church organization should be instructed about our teaching of the Trinity.
Those who are representatives of the Church are obligated to inform and instruct them on the Biblical Doctrine of the Trinity as held by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. This is no side-issue, not opptionable.
Any employee, pastor, or theologian, or anyone who is preparing people to join this church by baptism, and fails to inform the candidate that the church believes in the Trinity as its No. 2 Fundamental Belief, is being unethica. . . l because if you baptize somebody and they join the church only afterwards to find out that we believed in the Trinity, they may take offense when they find out the church believes in something they may not and they weren’t told about it!
We have to get this thing fixed and in the right order.
We should not hold back any information from a baptismal candidate. When they’re joining The Seventh-Day Adventist Church there must be full disclosure of our 28 fundamental beliefs before their baptized, including the Trinity. It is unethical to keep that aspect hidden because you just don’t like the term.
While the term Trinity is not found in the Bible, the theological concept is and the word Trinity of presents the Bible teaching of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost being ONE Divine Eternal Godhead.
Eugene Prewitt
Richard, you are plainly wrong. But the good news for you, perhaps, is that thousands share your view of the fundamental beliefs. Yes, they are voted. But in what sense are they voted? As a creed? No, not at all. From the beginning we have said that the fundamental beliefs are what are generally believed among us, not a criterion for what anyone must believe. If you doubt me on this, read the introduction to the book, “28 Fundamental Beliefs”.
We have a message to carry to the world, and that is what we must agree on.
Richard P Mendoza
ONLY ONE TRUE God=The Father
This is contrary to Scripture.
Anti-Trinitarian theologians and their disciples are wrong on this point.
Jesus Christ is The Way, The TRUTH, and The Life, He is the TRUE Witness, and “The TRUE God and eternal LIFE.”
1 John 5:20
AMPC And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.
CJB And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment, so that we may know who is genuine; moreover, we are united with the One who is genuine, united with his Son Yeshua the Messiah. He is the genuine God and eternal life.
GNV But we know that that Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind to know him, which is true, and we are in him that is true, that is, in that his Son Jesus Christ, the same is that very God, and that eternal life.
GW We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.
1 Corinthians 8:6
BBE There is for us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we have our being through him.
EasyEnglish But for us there is only one God, who is the Father. All things come from him and we live for him. There is only one *Lord, who is Jesus Christ. He made everything by his *power. And he causes us to continue living by his *power.
ISV yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live.
KJV But G235 to us G2254 there is but one G1520 God G2316, the Father G3962, of G1537 whom G3739 are all things G3956, and G2532 we G2249 in G1519 him G846; and G2532 one G1520 Lord G2962 Jesus G2424 Christ G5547, by G1223 whom G3739 are all things G3956, and G2532 we G2249 by G1223 him G846. note
KJVLite But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. note
NET yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.
NHEB yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
WEB yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
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Jeremiah 10:10
BBE But the Lord is THE TRUE God; he is the living God and an eternal king: when he is angry, the earth is shaking with fear, and the nations give way before his wrath.
EasyEnglish But the *LORD is really the ONLY God.
He is the God who is alive. He is the King who will always be alive. When he is angry, the earth moves like a leaf in the wind. When he is angry, the people in a country cannot stand.
ISV The LORD is the TRUE God; he’s the living God and the everlasting king. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
KJV But the LORD H3068 is the true H571 God H430, he is the living H2416 God H430, and an everlasting H5769 king H4428: at his wrath H7110 the earth H776 shall tremble H7493, and the nations H1471 shall not be able to abide H3557 his indignation H2195. note note
KJVLite But the LORD is THE TRUE God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
NET The LORD is the ONLY TRUE God. He is the living God and the everlasting King. When he shows his anger the earth shakes. None of the nations can stand up to his fury.
NHEB But the LORD is the TRUE God; he is the living God, and an everlasting King: at his wrath the earth trembles, and the nations are not able to withstand his indignation.
WEB But Yahweh is the TRUE God. He is the living God, and an everlasting King.
At his wrath, the earth trembles. The nations aren’t able to withstand his indignation.
Didn’t 1st Corinthians 8 verse 6 say there’s only one LORD Jesus Christ?
So now who is the TRUE God
It can’t just be the Father ALONE, NOT when the SON is the ONE TRUE LORD! ! !
1 Corinthians 8:6
BBE There is for us ONLY ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we are for him; and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we have our being through him.
EasyEnglish But for us there is ONLY ONE GOD, who is the Father. All things come from him and we live for him. There is ONLY ONE *LORD, who is Jesus Christ. He made everything by his *power. And he causes us to continue living by his *power.
ISV yet for us there is ONLY ONE God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is ONLY ONE LORD, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live.
KJV But G235 to us G2254 there is but one G1520 God G2316, the Father G3962, of G1537 whom G3739 are all things G3956, and G2532 we G2249 in G1519 him G846; and G2532 one G1520 Lord G2962 Jesus G2424 Christ G5547, by G1223 whom G3739 are all things G3956, and G2532 we G2249 by G1223 him G846. note
KJVLite But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE LORD Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
NET yet for us there is ONE God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and ONE Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.
NHEB yet to us there is ONE God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for him; and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
WEB yet to us there is ONE God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
The Anti-Trinitarianites are not right by the assertion that John 17:3 teach that only the Father is the true God and Jesus is not.
That’s a “malignancy” of interpretation when the same John writes about the very SAME TRUE GOD in 1 John 5:20, not as a “correction” but as a further explanation of the EXACT SAME mean of John 17:3.
“THIS MAN is the TRUE God and eternal LIFE”
Check the Greek on “THIS ONE” as pointing to Jesus Christ the Son not just the Father exclusively.
1 Corinthians 8:6 is (miss)used by Anti-Trinitarianite theologians and their disciples to “prove” that the Father is the “only ONE God” because they view “one” as numerically “1” as in God is only ONE PERSON-the Father ALONE. This is the false doctrine of “FATHERISM”. . .
Yet on the same rationale “there is ONLY ONE LORD Jesus Christ” to the exclusion of God the Father being LORD not just Jesus.
Jeremiah 10:10 “The LORD is the TRUE God”
Genesis 17:1 “The LORD appeared unto Abram and said I AM THE ALMIGHTY GOD”
JESUS Christ is the EXPRESS IMAGE of God’s very PERSON. God’s very PERSON is The Eternal Self-Existent ONE TRUE God.
If Jesus Christ is NOT the ONLY TRUE God, and ONLY the Father is, then the Son of God is NOT “the EXACT REPRESENTATION of God’s very BEING.”
You should not succumb and concave to the Anti-Trinitarian theology on this poiny.
Eugene Prewitt
Richard, you have well proved the divinity of Christ with these passages. You have shown conclusively that Jesus is properly called God. I do not think, however, that you have shown any evidence that the word “God” is not sometimes used to refer to the position of ultimate executive. And it is only in that sense that I have confessed that non-trinitarians have made a proper observation.
Ezekiel Scribe
“My non-trinitarian friends are certainly right that there is only one God, the Father. (See John 17:2-3).”
I cannot understand the logic behind claiming that the Father is the only God. I am a semi-non-Trinitarian (if that makes sense to anyone); however, I believe that Jesus is as much God as is the Father. To say the Father is the only true God is to say, at one and the same time, that Jesus is not truly God. Having “divine attributes” doesn’t elevate one to Godship–for we are also called to such a state of existence, without becoming God, are we not?
Mrs. White speaks of Christ “imparting his divine attributes” to us (see RH, September 4, 1894 par. 3). Once we have them, would that make us equal to Jesus? to God? are we then “divine”?
Eugene Prewitt
Ezekiel, in the article I make the point that the word God is used two different ways in Scripture. Jesus is certainly God in the sense that you address, completely and truly. Yes. There is another use of the word that means, in my words, CEO. In that sense, it is not a type of being, but a position. And that is the sense of many other verses (and Ellen White statements) where the word “God” is equal to “The Father.”
APL
Great Controversy is not neutral with respect to the Godhead – See chapter 29.
Eugene Prewitt
APL, the only neutrality I alleged was that both camps read the book happily without feeling challenged. Why? Because it wasn’t written to address the topic of the Godhead/trinity issue at all. It is still true that when my students sell this book here in Malaysia, I expect a reader to accept the Sabbath and the truth about mortality and to visit an Adventist church. (This has happened often around the world.) But I do not expect him or her to come to church with a chip on his shoulder about the godhead issue. If he comes with that, I suspect he got it online from somewhere, not directly from reading the book.
Barry Kimbrough
What page in Haskell’s Seer of Patmos has the mention of the Great Trinity
Eugene Prewitt
Found it. It is several mistakes combined into one. First, wrong book. It is “Daniel the Prophet.” Second, wrong year. It is 1908. Third, I should have given a reference. It would have helped me catch my own mistake! The reference is page 132 according to one website, but my version on the egw2 app doesn’t have any such wording. So I am looking still.
Eugene Prewitt
Ok, brother Knudson, a non-trinitarian friend of mine, explained (in an article) that it was on page 132 of the 1905 edition of the book, but not in the earlier (and I found, not in the latter) editions of the book. I’ll say, “problem solved.”
Eugene Prewitt
Fixed it.
Eugene Prewitt
Barry, I looked. I don’t know where I found this. And I can’t find it in the book. So, it is a pseudo reference for now. If I find the real source I will post it here.
DERRICK GILLESPIE
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Eugene Prewitt
Again, I don’t agree with all Derrick proposes or says. But as one that really searched, he presents good data. So I let his post here stand.
Larry Davis
Brother Eugene, editing repiles seems a but juvenile. Please leave entire replies so all can make up their own minds. Truth does not fear investigation.
Eugene Prewitt
Hi Larry. I am sorry that it seems a bit juvenile to you. If you have your own website, please feel fully authorized to publish the full comments of every person who cares to comment there. But my purpose in having comments is to allow me an opportunity to interact with searching persons. My purpose is not to create an open forum for discussing such things. So I will continue to edit comments as I see fit, but always alerting the reader that I have done so. I do not propose to provide a pulpit for dangerous ideas. If I turn off the microphone, I am making a statement.
Christy
Thank you very much for sharing this Sir.
I really forwarded this to our ministers here that may help them by God’s grace. God has been using you to make us more understand this topic.
Thank you… Glory to God!
simon deda
I couldn’t help but see and experience the love in your message. and it has cleared a lot questions i had, but from a balanced perceptive,..may God continue to give you wisdom and to guide His church into all truth….
Mel Duenas
Eugne, – Courage! Thanks for clearing the foggie, cloudy days as we all continue to strife and shine brighter unto the perfect day. Let’s continue forward movment on what unites and not that divides on the mission of the 3 Angels messages! God bless and use you unto the end!
Atong Camagay
Regarding Proverbs 8:24, 25:.. a deeper study of the Hebrew word that is rendered “brought forth” lead me to seek the original word used in a Hebrew-English interlinear. . . . You will also notice, that the full word in the masoretic text shows 6 letters [not only 3]. . . This is spelled in English transliteration as “chullthi” and pronounced “khoolthi’ . . . Thinking that a pre-Westcott and Hort influence lexicon more reliable, I sought the meaning of this 6 letter Hebrew{Aramaic] word in the Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon [1846] of Wilhelm Gesenius [1786-1842]. There [on page 265], is listed only 2 other verses in the Hebrew Bible that uses this word: Job 15:7 and Psalm 51:5 [both verses speak of birth]. The word is listed under the pulal [meaning passive intensive] verb stem. . . . Hope this helps you understand that Mr. Scott Stanley may be right after all… [Truncated by Eugene Prewitt]
Eugene Prewitt
Thank you, Atong, for caring about the truth. I can see that you have a misunderstanding about Hebrew verb forms. In some cases intensive forms, or causitive forms are used with different meanings. But in Hebrew, as in most languages, the root settles the width of the meaning, and the context does the narrowing and limiting. For ‘khool’, what you found in Gensius wasn’t the definition for the pulal form. Instead, it was the usage that he recognized in the Bible. (If you aren’t an Adventist, you don’t typically find Christ in Proverbs 8:24-25, so “born” seemed as good a metaphor to him as any. It wouldn’t make sense to him that “wisdom” was waiting, even though “waiting” is a normal metaphoric use. Mr. Scott was very wrong, and not even as sincere as you. His character showed up in the years after I encountered him.
Ricky Bokovoy
This was an interesting article and it is refreshing to see a SDA minister agree that the Father is the one true God and not feel that those who believe as our pioneers did on this issue should be disfellowshiped and not support the creed that our fundamental beliefs have become.
I do not agree with quite a few of the conclusions that this article makes, but I will point out a couple things that really stand out to me.
You said this:
“The life that Jesus had before coming to earth was not the Father’s life. It was his own life. And that is why He could pay for our sins. He was “self-existent.””
This is going beyond what is revealed.. . .
Christ was self-existent, but it is written that God gave Him this as a gift: “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself” (John 5:26).
. . .
Here are a couple SOP quotes to consider:
Though sin had produced a gulf between man and his God, divine benevolence provided a plan to bridge that gulf and what material did he use? A part of himself, the brightness of the Father’s glory came to a world all seared and marred with the curse, and in his own divine character, in his own divine body, bridged the gulf, and opened a channel of communication between God and man. The windows of heaven were opened, and the showers of heavenly grace in healing streams came to our benighted world. O what love, what matchless, inexpressible love! {1888 711.3}
In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.” It is not physical life that is here specified, but eternal life, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual received. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Lifegiver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. “I lay it down of myself,” He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as his personal Saviour. “This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” John 17:3. This is the open fountain of life for the world (ST Feb. 13, 1912). {5BC 1130.3}
…[heavily truncated by Eugene Prewitt]
Ricky Bokovoy
An individual contacted me on Facebook today wanting to read my whole response, but I can’t find it on Facebook. But that’s okay. I’m not sure what I originally wrote and I’m not even sure if I’d fully agree with it anymore as some of my thoughts on this subject have changed since then.
So, I’m revisiting this subject, and have some thoughts on it. You can truncate it; it is your forum; I don’t care. My foolish debating days are over and I regret the time wasted over it. And frankly, I’m quite displeased with the non-trinitarian movement as a whole, though in the last year or so I’m seeing a trend towards more practicality and spirituality and less debate and less focus on this issue, though some are not following this trend out of fanaticism. So, I’m just here again to learn and would like to hear your thoughts as well. I’m just seeking to know GOD and His love more, and I don’t want to have any false ideas of Him because these are perilous times we’re in.
I came across this quote today and it reflects some of the new ideas I have on this subject, as well as the second to last quote on my truncated response. My understanding now is that the FATHER Himself—*through* His SON—paid the penalty for our sins. I’ve seen other Spirit of Prophecy quotes recently that seem to support this as well. Here is the quote:
God has sent his Son to communicate ***his own life*** to humanity. Christ declares, “I live by the Father,” my life and his being one. “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him,” “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of Man.” The head of every man is Christ, as the head of Christ is God. “And ye are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.” { HM June 1, 1897, Art. A, par. 11 }
It is an interesting array of Bible quotes. But she seems to be saying that GOD (the FATHER) has the ultimate authority over even CHRIST; therefore, He has the authority to give this same life to His SON and the authority to judge. This eternal life of GOD, which none of us have been given (otherwise we would be divine) is what paid the price. GOD (meaning His own life in the personality of His SON) died for our sins. And the Spirit of Prophecy seems to support this:
“O tell the erring, God loves you, God died for you” (Letter 50, 1893). I’ve read other similar statements too, saying that GOD died, and when Sister White says “GOD” she, like the Bible, is referring to the FATHER, in this case, not His personality but His divine life.
I don’t share this to bring controversy, and I’m open to learning and potentially being corrected, but I think it sheds more light on what GOD (the FATHER) Himself did for our salvation. It was more than just sending someone else that He loves. He sent Himself, in the person of His SON. I don’t think any of us can comprehend this. The best I can make of it is that somehow, in JESUS being His only-begotten SON, GOD is *in* His SON, because it is His own life. I’m not saying I believe in consubstantiality like the Catholic Trinity doctrine teaches, though I think that doctrine is closer to the truth than we may think, but beyond what we can comprehend. Time after time the Bible (CHRIST’s own words) and SOP speak of GOD and His SON being *one*, and speaking of the FATHER being *in* His SON.
Now, here is how I understand it (and I’m not here to try to convince anyone but just to share how I see it): JESUS was not begotten as human children are, merely inheriting the divine nature as humans inherit a human nature. From what I read in the Bible and SOP it seems beyond this. I believe that the life of CHRIST is the very life of GOD. Inspiration also makes it clear that they are two separate corporeal personalities (so again not what the Catholic Trinity doctrine teaches). But I do not believe that the life of CHRIST has any kind of beginning or origin, because it is the life of GOD, only a beginning of personality (separate corporeal person).
“He was the Son of the living God. His personality did not begin with His incarnation in the flesh.” {Lt77-1894} (which indicates to me that His personality did have a beginning, but l’ll let the reader decide)
Non-trinitarians seem to stress such a separation between GOD and CHRIST that I think they damage the divinity of CHRIST in their own minds and those who accept their doctrine. I think it is a big mistake. Sister White counseled the church in her time to stress the divinity of CHRIST before we teach any controversial doctrines of our faith (which would undoubtedly (in my mind, at least) include their personality of GOD doctrine. But this has not generally been done among non-trinitarians, nor our pioneers until Waggoner did after 1888. He spent several chapters in his book “Christ and His Righteousness” on explaining the divinity of CHRIST, though I think He still erred in teaching that there was a *time* that CHRIST did not exist, in spite of all the good explanation.
I think that perhaps all (or nearly all) of us as Adventists have in some way compromised the oneness of the FATHER and the SON, and part of it is that we just cannot comprehend the life of GOD and I just think that we should acknowledge it more. This oneness is far beyond any human relationship. Many of the scholarly Adventists that are high up seem to suggest consubstantiality, but we need not go to that extreme or explain it in human terms.
So, in summation, I believe that the very life of GOD paid the death penalty. It could only do this by the personality of GOD (the FATHER) not dying and the personality of His SON, sharing the same life, dying. Then the FATHER could raise Him up with that same life of CHRIST, being the life of GOD, so that CHRIST could live again and give us that eternal life. But for us it will be borrowed and derived—still in us, but not our nature. We did not exist in any way, shape, or form before we were born. GOD knew us only because He knows eternity. But this is not how it was for the SON OF GOD, for His is the very life of GOD Himself, not by a perpetual generation as the Catholic Trinitarians believe but by one birth—just as CHRIST was begotten in being resurrected as Acts teaches. He lived before His resurrection, just as He lived before He was originally begotten from the FATHER; just a change of form, now a body without a fallen human nature. It was the same way with His incarnation (existed before, but new form). Therefore, the life of CHRIST could pay the penalty, which owes GOD nothing, because it is the very life of GOD (not merely derived from GOD). CHRIST is GOD, just not in personality, but it is not personality that matters in paying the price of redemption, for His personality has changed forms several times and it is not His finite humanity that paid the price, it was not a mere human sacrifice.
GOD gave Himself. He gave all.
–
“***God gave Himself***, withholding nothing, to save perishing souls. And God calls for workers who will share a part in this self-denial. {Lt109-1900}
“Christ has made a sacrifice to satisfy the demands of justice. What a price for heaven to pay to ransom the transgressor of the law of Jehovah. Yet that holy law could not be maintained with any smaller price. In the place of the law being abolished to meet sinful man in his fallen condition, it has been maintained in all its sacred dignity. ***In His Son God gave Himself*** to save from eternal ruin all who would believe in Him.” {Ms145-1897}
“God could not change or alter one precept of His law in order to save fallen man, for the law was His character. It was unchangeable, unalterable, infinite, and eternal. ***God gave Himself to save man***. Christ, the dearly beloved Son of God, *one with the Father*, died for us, thus expressing the love of God for sinful man.” {Ms58-1900}
Ricky Bokovoy
It doesn’t seem this program lets one edit, but I just wanted to say that when the Bible says, “so hath He given to the SON to have life in himself” (John 5:26), the giving to His SON is only in regard to His SON’s distinct personality, which did not pay the redemption price. So, I don’t think non-trinitarians have understood this correctly either. I see it no different than my one hand giving my other hand a glass of water. I am still Ricky and Ricky has the glass of water. Likewise, CHRIST is still GOD, and GOD has/is that eternal life, just with a different personality than His unbegotten self. Which means, I think that Eugene is correct in His assessment, just that there is more to the picture than what I (and I’m sure many others) have understood before. Inspiration (Bible and SOP) usually refers to “GOD” as the personality in its language, but that does not change the fact that CHRIST is “God *essentially*, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore.” (RH April 5, 1906, par. 6).
Eugene Prewitt
I do not think, Ricky, that I went beyond what is revealed when I talked about life “underived.” You owe your parents something because you are derived from them. But Jesus owed his Father nothing. And that is why He could pay for our sins. When Jesus was a man here on earth, He spoke as a man, “of mine own self, I can do nothing…” not because His Divinity was powerless, but because He had taken humanity on him. This explains the verse you quote, “so hath he given the Son to have life in himself.” That is, the Father gave Jesus the right to raise the dead, not that the Father brought Him into original existence.
The quotes you shared are good. The Son and the Father are part of each other. This is quite similar to what God said about my wife and I.
I truncated your message because I do not propose to make a forum here for ideas that I do not believe, and long messages have an effect on people who have a hard time following arguments. But if anyone wants to see your whole message, it is still on Facebook under your penname, Malachi.
David H. Thiele
Eugene, to help substantiate you position:
“If Christ had been deceived by Satan’s temptations, and had exercised his miraculous power to relieve himself from difficulty, he would have broken the contract made with his Father, to be a probationer in behalf of the race.” Review and Herald, April 1, 1875.
In other words, all created free moral agents are probationers–amenable to the laws governing the Kingdom of God–subject to the conditions of a covenant relationship of “obey and live, disobey and die.” Christ was not a created free moral agent. His was a life “original, unborrowed, underived.” Desire of Ages, 530. “The angels were sinless, but of less value than the law of God. They were amenable to law. They were messengers to do the will of Christ, and before him to bow. They were created beings, and probationers. Upon Christ no requirements were laid. He had power to lay down his life, and to take it again. No obligation was laid upon him to undertake the work of atonement. It was a voluntary sacrifice that he made. His life was of sufficient value to rescue man from his fallen condition.” Vol. 2, Spirit of Prophecy, 10.
DERRICK GILLESPIE
Might I share my personal findings as an SDA Trinitarian studying out E.G. White’s Christology compared with that of the earliest Christian apologists, the SDA pioneers, and ultimately that of the Bible? Also may I share my findings on the matter of worshiping the Spirit (including the *several E.G. White references endorsing the practice; not just the one reference Nader Mansour is bothered by), and finally, may I share my findings on the Godhead controversy among Adventists, and how the data fully supports Trinitarianism? Click the four links below to see my findings:
Link 1: https://www.scribd.com/document/331616383/JESUS-the-BEGOTTEN-SON-Compelling-Reasons-I-Believe-in-Jesus-Pre-Incarnate-Begetting
Link 2: https://www.scribd.com/document/356730652/Proofs-We-Should-Worship-the-Spirit-as-SDAs
Link 3: https://www.scribd.com/document/334494693/STUMPED-A-Pro-Trinitarian-Pictorial-and-Commentary-for-SDAs
Link 4: https://www.scribd.com/document/358946981/I-Still-Believe-in-a-Trinity-Seven-Reasons-Why
Eugene Prewitt
Dear Brother Gillespie,
I don’t think we have ever met. And I conclude differently than you regarding data in link 1. Nevertheless, and this is important, I highly appreciate you as one of the few people who do original research. And in reading all of these four documents, I most certainly did learn things. And I will be revising two or three end-notes in my article accordingly.
I think your spirit of antagonism to non-trinitarians might not be the most helpful approach. And I think your wholehearted adoption of the word “Trinity” might be unwise. But you define it well, and separate yourself from RC understandings of the same. So I am content to let others follow your links and come to what conclusions they will. You and I could work together doing evangelism. (But as about 1/12 persons in Jamaica is SDA, and as about 1/8,000 persons in West Malaysia is the same, I think you as a lay evangelism ought to move to Asia. Just saying. :))
Be faithful,
Eugene
DERRICK GILLESPIE
Appendix (of sorts):
Eugene,
I see where you laid heavy stress on the fact that in Jesus “is life original, unborred and underived”, and you used that as your ‘strong point’ to indicate that Jesus couldn’t have been “begotten” from God’s own substance before time began as a beginingless being (see Heb. 7:3; John 3:16; Proverbs 8:22-31; 1 Cor. 1:24). However you should be aware that Mrs White *BORROWED that statement from the Trinitarian, John Cumming, who also believed firmly in the Nicene Creed expressing Jesus’ pre-incarnate begetting….thus both expressions were resident in the same mind Mrs White borrowed the expression from. Just thought you should know, so that you don’t use an argument that can be easily refuted. For proof that she got this expression from a Trinitarian, see:
https://www.scribd.com/document/339756312/Mrs-White-Quotes-Trinitarian-Authors-An-Assessment
DERRICK GILLESPIE
FINALLY, FOR THOSE WANTING TO SEE HOW I COMPREHENSIVELY AND OBJECTIVELY DEALT WITH THE TRINITY ISSUES IN ADVENTISM, SEE THIS VITAL LINK:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214159269642027&set=a.1326983100956.2049415.1422297221&type=3&theater
Eugene Prewitt
I’ll give you this one too.
DERRICK GILLESPIE
And Eugene,
This thread or series of posts is most crucial to share, in order to combat the heresies and errors of the non-Trinitarians!! Happy to share!!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214715725473075&set=a.10211074144435825.1073741829.1422297221&type=3&theater
DERRICK GILLESPIE
HERE IS THE RATIONALE FOR MY APPROACH TO THE ANTI-TRINITARIAN DISSIDENTS:
Epilogue:
Anti-trinitarian dissidents in Adventism today love to play the victim as soon as you firmly approach them, debunk their errors publicly and sometimes give them a taste of their own medicine. What I find amusing is that:
1. They dislike me calling them “dissidents” when that’s exactly what they are and what they do…just as the dictionary defines “dissident”. They love to name the SDA Church and its leaders in public and condemn it/them as Babylon, fallen, apostate, hellbound, etc, but as soon as you name them and deem them misguided dissidents (backed by evidence), they play the victim and accuse you of being divisive, accusative, confrontational, judgemental…the very thing they are by nature.
2. For years they were leading away disciples unto themselves, but now that some of us are debunking their views with evidence, they start to play victim and feel like they are martyrs
3. John the baptist and Jesus himself had strong words for people in Israel who led people astray, but when the dissidents face rebuke for their misguided views leading people astray they want you to be soft and unifying in your tone when you correct them. Yet Jesus made plain that the truth, like a sword, will separate friends and family. Let the cutting truth do it’s work, like a sword!! The two “camps” Mrs White prophesied about are being formed as we speak (the sifting and SEPARATION must take place)!!!
Finally, let the reader judge for himself whether I am decimating truth at this link as it concerns the anti-trinitarian dissidents, or not:
https://www.facebook.com/derrick.gillespie/posts/10214715725633079?comment_id=10214726168934155&ref=notif¬if_t=like¬if_id=1506257195267755
Eugene Prewitt
Derrick, you have made many replies to this thread that I am not publishing. Please know that I have read them and have thought about them. And I am glad you have a venue for publishing your research. But I will not be publishing the other statements here. And I understand you have met bad-spirited anti-trinitarians. I have also. I am just saying that there are many others who are not thus bad-spirited. –Eugene
Mike Dawson.
Thanks Eugene – great article. I think people on both sides of this debate have been guilty of making it into a far greater issue than it really is.
We have a message, and a mission, and God is still waiting to have a people who are fully committed to both.
Gomgom Simatupang
Thanks for writing and sharing this Sir.. God bless you.
Wyatt Allen
Excellent paper! Thank you for taking the time!
Eugene Prewitt
This is a Catholic blog calling for Adventism to be reevaluated for its orthodoxy. Ok. It never was important for me to be viewed as Orthodox by an institution that famously reduced believers like me to ashes in the middle ages.